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My thoughts on CC the fetch
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Thread: My thoughts on CC the fetch

  1. #1
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    Default My thoughts on CC the fetch

    I am all for tying new methods but I see a few problems with this approach. One is they tell you to train the dog to pay attention to the dummy instead of the handler. I always prefer the dog pays attention to me, nothing else. I also think the operant conditioning method (clicker training) does not exercise the dog's ability to think. It simply conditions a reflex like reaction at the nervous system level. If their thinking faculty is not exercised and developed then dogs have a tendency to bounce around, like a billiard ball, from one stimulus to another. Have you implemented it yet? How are the results?

  2. #2
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    I think that if you wished to educate yourself on operant conditioning and clicker training with dogs you would find that clicker training is actually an enhanced form of communication between dog and trainer. You would also find that it stimulates the dog's thinking and gives him opportunities to make choices. A good starting point to learn about operant conditioning would be Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog".

    Best Regards,

    Robert Milner

  3. #3
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    I have read it several times. If I try using food in the field the dog doesnít like to go away from me. I found food to be more of a distraction during this type of training than anything. I dont think the bumper can compete with a food reward. Maybe this is why you have ď3 puppies that have a "missing link" in the retrieving behavior chain.Ē

  4. #4
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    Mr. Robert,
    Please correct me if I'm wrong or add to what am trying to say, from what I read and can tell the"click" is a faster way a relay to the animal that It has do something right and the reward is a payment for doing it right again, you then eventually start rewarding every other desired behavior and then back off completely when the desired behavoir has been established and when you want to add to that behavoir you have a positive foundation instead of a learned helplessness for a foundation.

    Respectfully,
    Craig Clark

  5. #5
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    If reinforcement fails to occur after a behavior that has been reinforced in the past, the behavior might extinguish. This process is called extinction.

    A variable ratio schedule of reinforcement makes the behavior less vulnerable to extinction but is never a sure thing. Or a behavior that has been strongly reinforced in the past no longer gains reinforcement, you might experience what's call extinction burst. This is when the animal performs the behavior over and over again, in a burst of activity. I see this all the time, you give one command and the dog breaks out his ďbag o tricksĒ.

    A good trainer will be aware of many different ways to teach a dog how to do something. The best trainers can read their dogs and pick out the best match for that dog to teach him something. Not all of us are brilliant, but a willingness to drop something that is not working and try something else still lets us take advantage of finding the right way to teach a dog something. Over time with a particular dog, you should find that you are more likely to choose the right way to present a new concept to this dog.

    A dog can be made accountable for his own misbehavior and, at the same time, responsible for his own good behavior. Koehler was right, then and now.

    The bases of the philosophy, simply stated, is that a dog acts on his God given right of choice. Mr. Koehler once explained that a dogís learned behavior is an act of choice based on his own learning experience. And that when those choices are influenced by the expectation of reward, the behavior will most likely be repeated. And, that when those choices are influenced by the anticipation of punishment, they will most likely cease. This is Natureís recipe for learning.

    Getting a dog to be well behaved or well trained is a matter of earning the dog's respect. No matter how great the marketing of the Positive Reinforcement approach, treat training just doesn't accomplish this. Why? Because Positive Reinforcement relies on "operant conditioning" rather than any meaningful communication. It teaches patterns rather developing understanding and respect.

  6. #6
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    Try "earning the respect" of a Dolphin or a Killer Whale sometime.

  7. #7
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    I took time last night to read the article. I have read Karen Pryor's book. In what you are doing is interesting with these three pups. I am very interested in the results, because I see a lot of show line dogs that would only fetch the food bowl.
    Did not George Hickox us Clicker to train some Bird dogs?

  8. #8
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    Pack Leader,
    Please note and with no disrespect that my earlier reply did not mention of the reward for the desired behavior being of any specific type. I do agree that you must be able to know at what stage of training your animal is at, so that you can build on that behavior and know what type of reward to give, and I think that goe's also for the trainer knowning or coming to realize what stage of training thier at. I am an amateur when it comes to training a gun dog. But before I came to the point of owning one I read and study different methods for about 8yrs what I have come to find out, that I set my self up for a lot of unnessary work or what is better known as having to double back for lack of knowledge which I have little of.

    I was surfing Avery outdoors web site the other day and clicked on thier sportdog page. There was an lady by the name of Judy Aycock and gentleman by the name of Danny Farmer discussing the stages that they thought that trainers went through. very interesting. I hope Never to get stuck in phase two.

  9. #9
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    First I would have to assume Dolphins have the same IQ level as a dog. Then I would have to assume that CC was based on Pavlovís classical conditioning witch it isnít. It is based on operant conditioning. My positive e-collar method is the closest you will ever come to the method used to train Dolphins. Methods aside you also need to look at how they are implemented on a day to day basis.

    When my dog creeps I take him back where he was and start the whole exercise over again.

    Making a dog go last for creeping is not training.

    Locking a dog in a box and ignoring it is not training.

    Offering and withholding food, attention, and affection to bribe a dog to do something is not training.

    You can talk about training methods all day but noone implements them in the same way. I donít look at the trainer or the method I look at the dog. Show me the results.

  10. #10
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    I have a quick question for anyone who can clairify something for me. I am neither a clicker trainer or an E-collar trainer so I may be a little ignorant of the abbreviations being used in this forum. I had been under the impression that CC refered to E Collar Conditioning. In this thread pack leader is using CC to refer to Clicker Conditioning (?) or Clicker training.

    What's the scoop? Fill me in.

    Swack

    P.S. Pack Leader: Since you don't look at the method, just the results, you should cut Robert some slack. He's trying something new. He just started. Why don't you wait to find out how the pups do with this method before you condemn it?
    Last edited by Swack; 08-21-2008 at 07:51 PM.

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